Definition; Attributes

[EvilAngel]

This is just a question for clarity.

There are four area's within all all 'races' these are:

Hand to Hand

Weapon Mastery

Speed

Spells


While each have their own names, these are simplified and universally understood names for each category.

Now, my question is simple

What exactly does each one mean?

Here is my current understanding. Though i have my doubts as to my correctness and i think it would be a good idea to open up the floor and be told directly what is what for all to see


Hand to Hand - Striking speed, strength and reaction speed with ones own body. Striking and reaction speed meaning how agile they are and how quickly they can strike with their fists or feet. Strength meaning the power behind their blows is tough, due to both mastery over stances, weight shifting and their mastery over martial arts.

Weapon skills - Striking speed, strength and reaction speed with a blade. Striking and reaction speed meaning how swift they can move their blade, and how instinctual their reactions are. Strength meaning the power behind their blows is tough, due to both mastery over stances, weight shifting and their ability to flow their spiritual energy into the sword, and work with it, achieving maximum results in bladed combat

Speed - Movement speed and mastery over Shunpo and equivalents. May also increase reaction speed

Spells - Mastery over using spiritual energy as ammunition in the forms of spells.



As i said, this is my current understanding. I did not list skill simply because; Firstly true skill comes from the Roleplayer not the character, as a more imaginative mind will possess more skill. Secondly because I've seen many None-specialized players reaction in combat in ways no novice ever could.

[Konsuijo-Tai]

The way I see it the specialists are a simple modifier to help guide players to role-playing with their characters in an honorable way, as well as serving a function in the mechanics of certain aspects. As you said in your conclusion, real skill will still always boil down to individual role-players, but this is supposed to make everything balanced.

The speed specialty is self explanatory. Being a non-specialist will mean you're typically not very fast, specialist makes you faster than that, and Master the fastest possible. Also, since the speed specialties govern the respective speed skill of each race they will also modify the ability of the character to use the skill. Non-specialist will have 'trouble' using the skill, and doesn't get much usage. Specialists can use it better, further, easier, and more times. And so on.

The unarmed specialty governs how much BS you can put when doing acrobatic karate stuff with the character, or at least is supposed to. It doesn't directly govern strength or anything of that like.

The weapon specialty is the same as the unarmed specialty in function, while serving a mechanic role. For a Quincey it governs how easily they can use their reibuki and modifies the use of their skills. For a shinigami how easily they can use their zanpacto and it's related skills.

The spell based specialty is probably the most diverse in terms of use. I'd assume it modifies the use of nearly every reiatsu based skill, that isn't weapon-based. Non-specialty is like being normal. Specialty gives you an easier them, with less draw, and so on.

[Takuya]

Tai is quite correct; the stats are not absolute, and are guidelines to your roleplaying. He's defined what they all contribute to the character. We focus on common sense. Clearly, a specialist in Zanjutsu and Hakuda will probably possess greater physical strength than a master in Kido, who in turn is slower and less reflexive than a Hoho Specialist.

^_^

[Itamiku]

However, Agility only marks speed upon running and changing direction/dodging strikes whereas Martial Arts giving speed and dextarity in hand to hand combat and Martial Weapon specs gives speed and dextarity when weilding a weapon. This is the way I see it, Agility governs the aspect of moving from point A to point B quickly and changing direction quickly, along with shifting body positions to dodge strikes.

Agility does not govern every aspect of fighting making the whole sense of 'balance' with specialties undone. However, there are some nameless people running around in who believe having an agility master/spec means a chracter is able to: attack faster, block faster, move faster, dodge faster, and react faster in every circumstance than one with non-agility spec. I agree with move/dodge faster, however one without Hand to Hand/Weapon Specialist (even if the non-spec does train for 200 years) should never be able to match the dextarity (speed/skill of hand) of a character who has training specified to the form of combat and has improved to the next specialty rank in it. Period. Those with Agility Spec should be able to dodge, those with Martial forms of training should be able to Parry/Block.

And to those people, I do not appreciate being flammed for not sharing the same views in 'specialties' as you, however I feel this more accuratly represents what was intended and not giving one type of character complete dominance over another.

[Ryu]

Alright, Ita. Let me lay it out for you how I think it is.

Agility - the power of moving quickly and easily; nimbleness

Speed - rapidity in moving, going, traveling, proceeding, or performing; swiftness; celerity

However similar these two words appear, they are not the same.

Agility only marks speed upon running and changing direction/dodging strikes whereas Martial Arts giving speed and dextarity in hand to hand combat and Martial Weapon specs gives speed and dextarity when weilding a weapon.

Advent humans are the only ones with the "agility" trait that you keep referring to. So for a comparison between advent humans, you would be correct here, I believe. However, Shinigami have Hoho, which is speed, not agility, and therefore refers to speed of motion. Not only does this cover motions such as running and dodging, but it covers all ranges of motion that the user can complete. It adds nothing to their power, only that they have the speed advantage over someone who does not specialize in speed.

"Agility does not govern every aspect of fighting making the whole sense of 'balance' with specialties undone."

Again, you are correct here. However, with the speed specialist that the shinigami have available, they can indeed assume that their character can "attack faster, block faster, move faster, dodge faster, and react faster" than a non-spec.

Dexterity - skill or adroitness in using the hands or body

This refers to how well you can use your hands and body, not necessarily how fast you are at moving and using them.

---

Now, as for a suggestion, I say change the sections so that all the specialists have a common name, rather than mixing it up with various words. I understand that there are special names for different groups, but this is just becoming confusing. The ones said in the first post would be good general names. Just have them in parentheses next to the special term, so people don't get into arguments over differing definitions.

So, for clarity and equality, I say change the word agility in the advent human section to 'speed' to prevent further problems with this.




definitions courtesy of dictionary.com.

[Takuya]

Speed governs your reaction time and your ability to move, yes, in general, especially concerning high speed motion. The ability to block is the facility of Weapon Skills and Hand to Hand.

However, it's important to note that speed has a hand in this. If you have a high level of skill in Weapon Skills or Hand to Hand, you can mostly make up for a difference in speed with these skills by having better, more efficient, and more reflexively conditioned responses. Even so, a Non-Specialist in Speed, unless they were a Master of Weapon Skills or Hand to Hand, would have difficulty keeping up with the strikes of a Master in Speed, simply because that person moves at too high of a speed for the Non-Specialist to react to.

Does that help?

[EvilAngel]

Jan 12, 2010 20:26:13 GMT 1 Takuya said:

Tai is quite correct; the stats are not absolute, and are guidelines to your role playing. He's defined what they all contribute to the character. We focus on common sense. Clearly, a specialist in Zanjutsu and Hakuda will probably possess greater physical strength than a master in Kido, who in turn is slower and less reflexive than a Hoho Specialist.

^_^

I hate to be crude be i think think might be unique to you, or a select few members.

I've seen none-specialists in hand to hand and Weapon master act with some pretty sweet counters.

In fact, not to whine because she's already dead, but my character was just killed in melee (she was a Sword Master) by a master in Animo.


I think this isn't good enough.

I think that to just label them as your skill isn't going to work, and isn't currently.

If you are rewarded by having high Spell mastery or speed master by faster movements, sonido and points every rank then for the sake of balance there should be something for the other two.

As i see it now if i were to remake again i would put no value in Hand to hand or Weapon mastery. Because they are essentially meaningless.

By the threads name i vote for a Redefinition.

[Reizo]

Your character being bested was your own fault. x.x
Greater physical strength doesn't always determine the outcome of a battle.

What do you expect him to do? This isn't NFRP, he's not going to write up a movement system for you guys. What do you want him to do for weapon and hand to hand?

"u gaet +4 style pointz u cna swing ur blaed coolr den othrs"?

Like he said, it's common sense. If you're a sword master, you're going to be able to swing a sword harder and with better technique than somebody that's a non-spec. If you think they're meaningless, you're very badly mistaken. Just because YOU can't use them efficiently doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, or that they have to be changed. x.x

[EvilAngel]

I'm not directly blaming my death on this system and i never meant to. I am simply giving a reason why perhaps something should be a little more than skill. As I’ve said before, real skill will come from a creative role player, not a character. So giving 2 attributes that mainly govern level of skill doesn't make sense to me.

As i see it, Speed makes hand to hand and weapon mastery almost redundant. Since it gives you a vast majority of what physical battles are about speed.

As it stands I would be in favour of altering the whole system to:

Speed – Movement, reaction and striking speed (+ sonido per rank gained)

Spell – Increases your power with spell, higher levels allow for chantless and duel chanting spell use (+ points per rank gained)

Strength – Increases the physical power of a character. Increasing striking power and increases the power to break out of bindings and the like

Reiatsu – Increasing the amount of spiritual energy a person possess.



To me, this makes allow more sense that the current system. Because here at least you are ranking 4 things that are directly influencing the basic parts of any battle.

But if you want to keep your hand to hand and sword thing I would suggest giving it something you might want it for…. For examples sake

Weapon mastery – Increases ‘sharpness’ of your sword, and how well you can use it, in both seal and released forms. (+ use of its released power*)

Unarmed combat – Increases the technique of your characters attacks, allowing their fists and feet to damage more resistant enemies (+ ranks maybe open up some good powers like; Shunkō or Utsusemi)

*For the bracket thing you could have increase in it’s power, or charges to use your weapons ‘ultimate’ power or whatever you can think up.

My point is simply, as it stands hand to hand and weapon skills are both made very nearly pointless by speed mainly. But the benefits of either speed or spell vastly outweigh the practicality of being specialised or a master in the other two. To create a balance I would advise you to make the other attributes more tempting.

It’s just my opinion. So please don’t write back so defensively as though I am attacking you.

[Reizo]

I wasn't being defensive, merely giving my own views on it. But k?

You make much more sense now in this post. I can see where you're getting at, and I actually like the idea of the first four. It would make a difference in combat and is more unique and adds a sense of character customization. Although really, it boils down to what Taku and Devious think. I don't know if they want to go changing the system, but overall I think it's a good idea. /thumbs up

[blaxican]

EDIT- ... Well peace has been made and therefore this TL;DR post is now irrelevant.

Hate you guys.

Jan 13, 2010 6:53:53 GMT 1 Reizo said:

"u gaet +4 style pointz u cna swing ur blaed coolr den othrs"?

Like he said, it's common sense.

Out of curiosity, how is this true at all? I mean the entire concept of "honor system" goes out the window because both speed specialist and spell specialty do exactly what you're saying is ridiculous for a sword spec. or H2H spec. For the Speed+Kido specs. Their effects could simply be that someone can withstand going at extreme speeds for longer than before, or that they have more reaitsu for attacks. But instead physical numbers are given for each, +1 Sonido, +1 Kido upgrade, etc. And the reason for this is because, for all of the talk about an honor system there is no honor system and there never has been one and there never will be one.

So with that out of the way, let's be realistic and look at the facts... currently, because actual fighting skill is based off of the writer's writing ability, there is currently zero advantage to being a H2H or sword specialist. My character can be a Sword master, and yours can be a sword non-spec., but if in real life I have never handled a sword before and I have no idea how to fight one and that is reflected in my posts, then my characters masterful devotion to the sword arts means shit, even if your character doesn't know anything about fighting, but you do.

You guys see what I'm saying? So what acual advantage is there in choosing sword spec. or H2H over speed and kido? I mean you could say "Well if you don't know anything about swords then don't be a sword mastery"... but... c'mon. =\

So yes, Heero's system. On this forum particularly, you guys talk a lot of shit about Heero and his site and a lot of it is warranted, but one of the things I always felt he set up flawlessly (or whoever helped him do it) is the specialties. Ninjutsu masters have clear cut weaknesses and strengths compared to Taijutsu masters, which can be taken advantage of and exploited within a fight. Like, if a Taijutsu master gets in close to you and you're a Nin master then you're pretty much fucked, and it doesn't matter how smart you may be at fighting or what not, your character is a Taijutsu non-spec, and he's going down in CQC, and that's something that everybody acknowledges and any Staff looking at the fight will acknowledge it as well. So there is no conflicts about it, and when people are choosing their specialties they have to actually think "Hm... I should choose wisely because it will actually mean something in combat", as opposed to on here where I can decide to be a H2H and sword Non-spec and still kick anyones ass in a H2H match, simply because I actually know how to fight in real life... it makes the system pointless and irrelevant. In fact the only thing that you have to think carefully about when making your character is his/her ability... and the trick to that is to just make it as OP as possible while still being within the limits, lol.

In any case, that's my two cents.

[blaxican]

Well, since everyone is flinging ideas out there, I might as well get mine in as well. Here's an example of what I feel would make sense.

Close Quarters Specialist
A Close Quarters Specialist is one who is devoted to physical arts of combat, this can mean fighting with a physical weapon, or with your hands. Those who specialize in this category tend to have better hand-eye coordination than most as a result of their training, which results in faster reflexes and perceptions of other movements. A person who is a non-specialist in this category will generally have slower reflexes and perceptions than one who is a specialist. A person who is a master in this category takes it a step further, showing reflexes that are unbridled. Even a specialist would be hard pressed to keep up with a Master in the heat of combat, and the gap between Master and Non-Specialist would be completely palpable.

Toughness/Conditioning
Often times this specialist goes hand in hand with close quarters specialists, but there are always exceptions. A specialist in conditioning and and toughness has honed the muscles and power in their body to the brink, to the point where the specialist can shrug off hits that weaker men would buckle at, and can dish out damage with an above average ferocity. This specialist deals with strength and durability. One who is not a specialist in this category will in general have a body that is more susceptible to physical and spiritual harm than that of a Specialist, and the will also be physically weaker as well. A master of this specialist will have a seemingly divine sense of durability and strength, at least compared to specialists and non-specialists. In terms of physical damage, aside from (in some cases) tougher skin, it is more a matter of stamina. One who specializes in this category can more hits before bleeding out/succumbing to the pain than one who isn't.

Spiritual Specialist
A specialist in the spiritual arts will have a high reaitsu pool with which they can use attacks, and can afford to lose energy over time, a specialist can also rebound from or deal with a sudden drop in reaitsu quicker than one who isn't a specialist in this. In general, the reason for this type of perks is that because of their devotion to the art, a spiritual specialist simply has better control over their reaitsu, which is helpful in the long run. if a Non-Specialist and a Specialist were to use an equally leveled spell at the same time, the specialist's spell would in general be more powerful, and less taxing on the conjurer. For masters this counts double.

Speed/Velocity

The ability to move from point A to point B. Simple. Whereas close quarters specialism affects your reflexes, one who specializes in this category can simply move their entire body around, wither it be via strength of will, or using reitsu. This category has many similarites to CQC, but differences as well. They are different in the same manner that there is a difference between a track runner and a boxer. A track runner may be able to beat the boxer in a 50-yard dash, but that doesn't mean that the track runner will be dodging the boxer's attacks in a fight. One who specializes in this category will be able to move from one location to the next in a much quicker manner than one who isn't, double for masters.

[G R E E D]

evilangel said:

In fact, not to whine because she's already dead, but my character was just killed in melee (she was a Sword Master) by a master in Animo.

By making a technical question directly after whatever ailments have just afflicted you, you are in essence whining; though it's quite alright, since that's what support is for. But I digress...by your standards, anyone without skill in Hand to Hand or Swordplay shouldn't make an effort to perform any form of attack using those mediums at all then?

There's a big difference between slashing, swiping and scratching just once with your claws/fist/sword in a critical and correct area, and consistently delivering stronger strikes with deeper penetration power, which would eventually drive past your opponent's guard. As a simple example, I really doubt you'd need to be Chuck Norris 'whose leg is of gold' to kick someone in the nuts once and bring them down for a good while. Though it'd certainly help!


P.S. Not sure how you missed this from Yuri's post as well as my own, but you aren't dead. I let you live, and a shinigami just took you back to SS to heal.

[EvilAngel]

Jan 13, 2010 17:17:37 GMT 1 G R E E D said:

evilangel said:

In fact, not to whine because she's already dead, but my character was just killed in melee (she was a Sword Master) by a master in Animo.

By making a technical question directly after whatever ailments have just afflicted you, you are in essence whining; though it's quite alright, since that's what support is for. But I digress...by your standards, anyone without skill in Hand to Hand or Swordplay shouldn't make an effort to perform any form of attack using those mediums at all then?

There's a big difference between slashing, swiping and scratching just once with your claws/fist/sword in a critical and correct area, and consistently delivering stronger strikes with deeper penetration power, which would eventually drive past your opponent's guard. As a simple example, I really doubt you'd need to be Chuck Norris 'whose leg is of gold' to kick someone in the nuts once and bring them down for a good while. Though it'd certainly help!


P.S. Not sure how you missed this from Yuri's post as well as my own, but you aren't dead. I let you live, and a shinigami just took you back to SS to heal.

Nice, but not the place G R E E D.

Let's try to remain on topic please.

[G R E E D]

I figured since you, the OP, brought it up, it was somehow related to the topic.

*shrugs*

I actually addressed one of your concerns in this thread, which was about certain specializations not being balanced alongside others, something which is understandable. However, I wanted to clarify what transpired in our particular thread does not quite apply to the point you brought up. Either way, if this were to turn into a voting type change, I'm for the additions; it seems those two specs get lost in translation when the RP heats up.

[EvilAngel]

Jan 13, 2010 20:44:28 GMT 1 G R E E D said:

I figured since you, the OP, brought it up, it was somehow related to the topic.

*shrugs*

I actually addressed one of your concerns in this thread, which was about certain specializations not being balanced alongside others, something which is understandable. However, I wanted to clarify what transpired in our particular thread does not quite apply to the point you brought up. Either way, if this were to turn into a voting type change, I'm for the additions; it seems those two specs get lost in translation when the RP heats up.

Just as an example of why i find the two attributes a bit.... well fruitless. whether or not i died or not isn't the point in itself if you see what i mean.

((Though i thank you for not killing me. I am quite fond of my current character. Just wanted to tell you that. ))

[Takuya]

Hm… Redefine the four statistics? Well, let’s see…

On the note of Heero’s system. I admit he has a good thing set up, but one reason I set up Kaichou no Toko was because NFRP was so damn technical that it had lost the original drive of a creative ninja RP and become some sort of DnD style all-anime combat roleplay. We define our Spell and Speed categories with actual numbers, simply because they would be abused without a definition. I don’t want to make this a supremely stat-based roleplay.

As for the statistic redefining, I do sort of like that idea. I’d have to take it to a vote, but redefining the basic categories into Speed, Strength, Control, and Reiatsu are interesting to me. I shy away from anything that definitely says “I HAVE MORE REIATSU THAN YOU”, because it seems like that would become the end-all of everything, but I can see how it might work. They would become, much as EA has stated;

Strength – Regards the physical strength, in reference to striking and breaking free of entrapments.

Speed – Remains the same.

Control – Higher level specialists use less reiatsu for abilities.

Reiatsu – Defines the level of reiatsu one possesses, which indirectly affects how hard they are to wound.

Hmm. Everyone, chime in here, tell me what you think on this concept.

[Reizo]

I like it.
Makes it more unique, and makes you have to choose more carefully.

[blaxican]

Well FUCK you guys then.

All that writing for nothing.. =( /euthanasia

[EvilAngel]

Jan 13, 2010 22:35:21 GMT 1 Takuya said:

Hm… Redefine the four statistics? Well, let’s see…

On the note of Heero’s system. I admit he has a good thing set up, but one reason I set up Kaichou no Toko was because NFRP was so damn technical that it had lost the original drive of a creative ninja RP and become some sort of DnD style all-anime combat roleplay. We define our Spell and Speed categories with actual numbers, simply because they would be abused without a definition. I don’t want to make this a supremely stat-based roleplay.

As for the statistic redefining, I do sort of like that idea. I’d have to take it to a vote, but redefining the basic categories into Speed, Strength, Control, and Reiatsu are interesting to me. I shy away from anything that definitely says “I HAVE MORE REIATSU THAN YOU”, because it seems like that would become the end-all of everything, but I can see how it might work. They would become, much as EA has stated;

Strength – Regards the physical strength, in reference to striking and breaking free of entrapments.

Speed – Remains the same.

Control – Higher level specialists use less reiatsu for abilities.

Reiatsu – Defines the level of reiatsu one possesses, which indirectly affects how hard they are to wound.

Hmm. Everyone, chime in here, tell me what you think on this concept.

Well, you know I like it To me it just makes more sense than the current one.

I understand what you're saying though, this does make one focus more so on the stats however I feel that it already is, but at the moment it's only 2 of the stats that matter so it’s simply in what order do you choose those. In doing this I feel you have to get more of a feel for your character. And in doing so it’s will become even more personal to you.